admin abuse
- jim
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7 years 5 months ago #11055
by jim
admin abuse was created by jim
Jevski kicking me without reason.
Approx ten minutes ago. Muttrah map was about to finish with failed US team (that needed some serious admining, which was not happening).
in game name: cantpicknameiwant
Approx ten minutes ago. Muttrah map was about to finish with failed US team (that needed some serious admining, which was not happening).
in game name: cantpicknameiwant
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7 years 5 months ago - 7 years 5 months ago #11056
by =HOG= __Super_6__5__
Replied by =HOG= __Super_6__5__ on topic admin abuse
soooo, what is the abuse?
Are you familiar with our rules?
he kicked you for this one,
Do not enter into fort as infantry unless the attack flag is on it.
Are you familiar with our rules?
he kicked you for this one,
Do not enter into fort as infantry unless the attack flag is on it.
Last edit: 7 years 5 months ago by =HOG= __Super_6__5__.
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7 years 5 months ago #11062
by jim
Replied by jim on topic admin abuse
After seeing the original post, Jevski engaged me (in game).
First he coyly insisted I have not read the rules, which was idiotic banter as I keep saying I have.
Then he finally, decided to grace me with the reason he kicked me.
In his opinion I had broken the 8 year old rule of being in the fort.
For a refresher for admins, here is the excerpt from HOG rules about the fort:
...
MUTTRAH SPECIFIC RULES:
...
Do not enter into fort as infantry unless the attack flag is on it.
Do not shoot into fort except to return fire.
...
We believe in a fair play for all, and do our best to keep the server this way.
I did not enter into fort, nor did I attempt to enter into fort, nor was I close to entering into fort.
I also did not fire into fort, in fact I did not fire at all. I also was not fired upon, I believe my position was only known by one person on the server ... the admin in the wrong.
I also did not give an excuse of: "he fired on me", or "I was only passing through". So those reasons to kick me are not valid.
Jevski interpretation of the rules do not match the rules, as written. Jevski tried to put the words; "I was only passing through" into my mouth without even talking to me. He admits these are the thoughts he has when he sees a player in his "fort" area which in this case meant a player not in the fort.
Again I did not enter into fort. This is the rule, as written, which I did not break but was kicked for breaking.
As for the spirit of the rule, well spirits are always more philosophical, but I know I was not breaking the spirit of the rule. Muttrah Docks flag was MEC's, The only MEC I was aware of being anywhere away from N Suburbs or M Docks was MEC mortars, which I estimate to have been south of the palace near the twin Ts. As I have read the rules, I knew I could get to those mortars without involving "fort". And at the same time I also knew I was not going to return any fire.
Jevski also chided me for taking the "in the fort" southern road versus the northern (coastal) road which he claims is the night and day difference between being in the fort and not being in the fort.
In regards to this wrongful kick, Jevski also used the phrase "in the flag" which is not in the rules.
As I promised Jevski, I have looked on the PR map gallery to see if I was even breaking this "non-written rule" of "in the flag zone of fort".
It is a close call, I would insist two or more adjudicators show up with their micro-measuring devices to see if I even passed into or through the flag zone.
postimg.org/image/5wzrgjx8l/
See in the image, blue dot is approximately where I was when kicked, green line is approximately my path just before the kick. I can say for sure I bumped into the map inherent TOW emplacement while traveling in that SW direction. I passed the TOW on the southern side, not the northern. It is not obvious if I was in the border of the flag zone. Any one care to review a BR demo file? Even then that would only show where I walked. Flag areas (spheres) over-laid on two dimensional maps do not always reflect what a player on the ground experiences. The only way to tell if I really was in the flag zone would be to precisely rewalk the path I took while watching for the "in the flag zone" indicator.
The orange line is the boundary of the "fort". This orange line represents the boundary of the no go zone written in the rules.
And just to cover my disbelief of Jevski's statement that I would have been ok to take the northern road, please note that the flag zone covers most of that road. I would have been more likely to pass into the flag zone if I had taken the ok way per Jevski.
Jevski also tried to rationalize my kick because of his year of hearing "excuses" from so many other players, that he had to read the worst intention of potential rule breaking with my benign actions. Which I translate into: kicking me before I broke a rule, even though it was highly improbable I would or could. He also tried to rationalize that he had to kick me because I was setting the stage for others to break the very rule he kicked me for .... which I did not break.
Summary: Jevski kicked me incorrectly per the written rules. I believe he says the "fort" rule he enforces is actually the flag zone of the fort. If this is the intention, then rewrite the rule to reflect the intention, i.e.: "As infantry, do not enter into the flag zone of the MEC Fortress unless the attack icon is on it".
Jevski, note how I used the proper name of the flag, I only state this as you were so quick to "prove" me wrong by "catching" me interchangeably using the term fort and fortress.
If Jevski's interpretation of what is not allowable *near* the "fort" is in fact what is meant then Jevski and I agree on one point: the rules are poorly written. Again I believe I was kicked while not breaking the rules, nor the spirit of the rules.
Rewrite the rule and I may or may not agree with it. It still won't matter what I agree with, but I will abide by the rules ..... as I can know them, which I can only know by reading them (Jevski likes people to do this) .... or .... I will know why I get kicked if I break the rule (I do know the rules ... as written) and I will only be able to grumble to myself for *accidentally* breaking the rule .... as in ... I was not paying attention to where I was traveling while trying to get to my destination and certainly not breaking the spirit of the rule only the letter.
As for the other excerpt of the rules (which probably should not be Muttrah specific, but an over all idea .... I also believe in fair play. Posting one rule and enforcing a different rule is not fair.
First he coyly insisted I have not read the rules, which was idiotic banter as I keep saying I have.
Then he finally, decided to grace me with the reason he kicked me.
In his opinion I had broken the 8 year old rule of being in the fort.
For a refresher for admins, here is the excerpt from HOG rules about the fort:
...
MUTTRAH SPECIFIC RULES:
...
Do not enter into fort as infantry unless the attack flag is on it.
Do not shoot into fort except to return fire.
...
We believe in a fair play for all, and do our best to keep the server this way.
I did not enter into fort, nor did I attempt to enter into fort, nor was I close to entering into fort.
I also did not fire into fort, in fact I did not fire at all. I also was not fired upon, I believe my position was only known by one person on the server ... the admin in the wrong.
I also did not give an excuse of: "he fired on me", or "I was only passing through". So those reasons to kick me are not valid.
Jevski interpretation of the rules do not match the rules, as written. Jevski tried to put the words; "I was only passing through" into my mouth without even talking to me. He admits these are the thoughts he has when he sees a player in his "fort" area which in this case meant a player not in the fort.
Again I did not enter into fort. This is the rule, as written, which I did not break but was kicked for breaking.
As for the spirit of the rule, well spirits are always more philosophical, but I know I was not breaking the spirit of the rule. Muttrah Docks flag was MEC's, The only MEC I was aware of being anywhere away from N Suburbs or M Docks was MEC mortars, which I estimate to have been south of the palace near the twin Ts. As I have read the rules, I knew I could get to those mortars without involving "fort". And at the same time I also knew I was not going to return any fire.
Jevski also chided me for taking the "in the fort" southern road versus the northern (coastal) road which he claims is the night and day difference between being in the fort and not being in the fort.
In regards to this wrongful kick, Jevski also used the phrase "in the flag" which is not in the rules.
As I promised Jevski, I have looked on the PR map gallery to see if I was even breaking this "non-written rule" of "in the flag zone of fort".
It is a close call, I would insist two or more adjudicators show up with their micro-measuring devices to see if I even passed into or through the flag zone.
postimg.org/image/5wzrgjx8l/
See in the image, blue dot is approximately where I was when kicked, green line is approximately my path just before the kick. I can say for sure I bumped into the map inherent TOW emplacement while traveling in that SW direction. I passed the TOW on the southern side, not the northern. It is not obvious if I was in the border of the flag zone. Any one care to review a BR demo file? Even then that would only show where I walked. Flag areas (spheres) over-laid on two dimensional maps do not always reflect what a player on the ground experiences. The only way to tell if I really was in the flag zone would be to precisely rewalk the path I took while watching for the "in the flag zone" indicator.
The orange line is the boundary of the "fort". This orange line represents the boundary of the no go zone written in the rules.
And just to cover my disbelief of Jevski's statement that I would have been ok to take the northern road, please note that the flag zone covers most of that road. I would have been more likely to pass into the flag zone if I had taken the ok way per Jevski.
Jevski also tried to rationalize my kick because of his year of hearing "excuses" from so many other players, that he had to read the worst intention of potential rule breaking with my benign actions. Which I translate into: kicking me before I broke a rule, even though it was highly improbable I would or could. He also tried to rationalize that he had to kick me because I was setting the stage for others to break the very rule he kicked me for .... which I did not break.
Summary: Jevski kicked me incorrectly per the written rules. I believe he says the "fort" rule he enforces is actually the flag zone of the fort. If this is the intention, then rewrite the rule to reflect the intention, i.e.: "As infantry, do not enter into the flag zone of the MEC Fortress unless the attack icon is on it".
Jevski, note how I used the proper name of the flag, I only state this as you were so quick to "prove" me wrong by "catching" me interchangeably using the term fort and fortress.
If Jevski's interpretation of what is not allowable *near* the "fort" is in fact what is meant then Jevski and I agree on one point: the rules are poorly written. Again I believe I was kicked while not breaking the rules, nor the spirit of the rules.
Rewrite the rule and I may or may not agree with it. It still won't matter what I agree with, but I will abide by the rules ..... as I can know them, which I can only know by reading them (Jevski likes people to do this) .... or .... I will know why I get kicked if I break the rule (I do know the rules ... as written) and I will only be able to grumble to myself for *accidentally* breaking the rule .... as in ... I was not paying attention to where I was traveling while trying to get to my destination and certainly not breaking the spirit of the rule only the letter.
As for the other excerpt of the rules (which probably should not be Muttrah specific, but an over all idea .... I also believe in fair play. Posting one rule and enforcing a different rule is not fair.
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7 years 5 months ago #11063
by =HOG= __Super_6__5__
Replied by =HOG= __Super_6__5__ on topic admin abuse
um, way too long. i stopped at you say you werent in fort, prove it with the battlerecorder and we will talk with jevski about it.
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7 years 5 months ago #11064
by =HOG=Haley11thACR
Replied by =HOG=Haley11thACR on topic admin abuse
there are always players who push the rules we will attempt to clarify for your specific situation...dont go near the fort....then when u or some other player asks how close we will set a distance...then when they push that we will again amend the rules....see the problem? Just stay away from the fort and if an admin tells u to do something do it...if u feel wronged come in to the forums...
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7 years 5 months ago #11065
by jim
Replied by jim on topic admin abuse
I started this in the forums, it was Jevski that engaged me in game.
It seems I am actually asking you to amend the rules to increase the size of the area, not decrease it. The flag area of the fort is much larger than the fort.
There will always be people that push the limits. I agree. This is no reason to write incorrectly stated rules.
I was no where near the fort, I was near the edge of the flag zone.
If the rule was clearer there will still be people who will challenge ... such as .. "I was 1m outside the flag zone, not 1m inside".
In this case I was 70m+ away from the fort. At this distance of 70m+, while knowing the rules, I was wronged. At one meter I would be in my opinion a petty arguer. Also if I knew the flag zone was the no go zone, I would have given a wide berth to it. I could easily stayed 10m south of the southern road, if I had known the "real" rule, instead of the posted rule.
Write the rules to reflect what is intended and you will of course hear a complaint from someone at sometime (no matter what) but you will not hear a complaint from a reasonable person that is trying to follow the rules - as posted.
As for an admin telling me to do something and me having a chance to do it, well tough to do when
"we do NOT issue warnings when rules are broken. " is an SOP and the admin thinks I broke a rule.
I was given no warning. And ... I did not break the rule, as written. Sure I am getting the picture that the flag zone is what is meant, but what happens if next time I stay completely south of and off the southern road? (I ask here since I might only find out the unfair way in game).
I am trying to comply with what ever the rule is .... I am not trying to circumvent it. But I am not a mind reader, nor is it stated in the rules. what is meant by "fort". Though I now know fort in the rules means "some area larger than just the fort".
The difference of 70m in game is not petty and any reasonable misinterpretation could easily be cleared up in advance by simply changing the rule from fort to flag zone of MEC Fortress. Even "an area larger than the flag zone of MEC Fortress" is more accurate than what is posted though not as definable.
It seems I am actually asking you to amend the rules to increase the size of the area, not decrease it. The flag area of the fort is much larger than the fort.
There will always be people that push the limits. I agree. This is no reason to write incorrectly stated rules.
I was no where near the fort, I was near the edge of the flag zone.
If the rule was clearer there will still be people who will challenge ... such as .. "I was 1m outside the flag zone, not 1m inside".
In this case I was 70m+ away from the fort. At this distance of 70m+, while knowing the rules, I was wronged. At one meter I would be in my opinion a petty arguer. Also if I knew the flag zone was the no go zone, I would have given a wide berth to it. I could easily stayed 10m south of the southern road, if I had known the "real" rule, instead of the posted rule.
Write the rules to reflect what is intended and you will of course hear a complaint from someone at sometime (no matter what) but you will not hear a complaint from a reasonable person that is trying to follow the rules - as posted.
As for an admin telling me to do something and me having a chance to do it, well tough to do when
"we do NOT issue warnings when rules are broken. " is an SOP and the admin thinks I broke a rule.
I was given no warning. And ... I did not break the rule, as written. Sure I am getting the picture that the flag zone is what is meant, but what happens if next time I stay completely south of and off the southern road? (I ask here since I might only find out the unfair way in game).
I am trying to comply with what ever the rule is .... I am not trying to circumvent it. But I am not a mind reader, nor is it stated in the rules. what is meant by "fort". Though I now know fort in the rules means "some area larger than just the fort".
The difference of 70m in game is not petty and any reasonable misinterpretation could easily be cleared up in advance by simply changing the rule from fort to flag zone of MEC Fortress. Even "an area larger than the flag zone of MEC Fortress" is more accurate than what is posted though not as definable.
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