@ Swamp and the other guys DOD in Ramiel

The devs do consider this an exploit.

"....tell them that I consider it glitching, exploiting, bug abuse or w/e else you want to call it and that i would kick or ban for it." Direct quote from Mats391

on the other hand it would be another DOD from the DOD… what’s the point of an DOD if we need another one?! Also, I can hear everyone bitching ... its only 0.99 grids away... from where do you measure

Well it just makes it more clear, if the mortars are CLEARLY outside of DOD then there should be no problem.

If everyone played in the spirit of the game and with fair play in mind this discussion wouldn't have never occured.

*on a side note, 3 mortars is far stronger than 2. Particularly when counter mortaring . You would never be able to do this without abusing the deployment mechanics, which the overwhelming majority 99.9% are unable to do. Are you going to tell the enemy team how to deploy 3 mortars at the start of the round so its fair?

For the TL:DR, stop-confusing-me-with-facts, I-am-right ppl: currently 3 mortars = bad = No no.

Referring to my previous post: on the very next map the "admins" again endorsed the three mortar exploit. Well the weak and unconsidered opinion seems to go - ... actually I can not fathom it, but in summary - 3 is ok.
Now put on your thinking caps.
On that next map, Op Marlin, it might seem "fair" (I cringe to abuse the word that way) to allow both sides the potential of exploit, though it is not in the manual and requires a level of "teamplay" higher than calling an area attack (and how many ppl can do that epic task ....), but it is not fair. Apply the thought Yakk has "2. Particularly when counter mortaring ." as something very imbalancing in that aspect alone. Here you guys might consider deferring to the opinion of a regular competent mortarman for first hand experience and expert knowledge.

On al basrah the whole concept of "let them all exploit" completely, utterly falls apart.
If you had taken a minute to think it through, you would realize blufor gets ..... zero .... mortars and ins gets two, no, wait 150% that power because exploiting is allowed by this server's admins.

The devs are continuously trying to balance the game by refinement of the mod and the maps.
In the recent past they considered three mortars okay, then they decided three was too much imbalance and lowered the pits to just two.

Why allow the exploit of three mortars, but decide the other exploit of too many other assets on a fob is not ok? Use those thinking caps you put on. What if I could spawn an extra tank or scimitar on al Basrah? Ok exploit or not ok exploit?

Also a point about the DoDs, again the devs use actual game rounds history to modify things. So if a server has "special" rules then the data the devs are looking at is biased and basically corrupt.
Have you not noticed that DoDs have sometimes changed with patches?
How can Devs know to modify or "fix" something that is "balanced" by artificial means due to server rules?
I bet *if* the devs can fix the imbalance of the three mortar exploit, they will or would have. And as is noted in this thread there are some inherent aspects of the game that can not be "fixed", they have to administrated. You may groan that yet another rule has to be created and enforced, but it is what it is.

And rationalization that other exploits are facts and therefore we should allow this one .... again thinking caps please. I will only address one aspect to jump start the neurons of some.
Intent or not (I have read other posts here at HOG and the consensus of HOG higher ups is imo that this is one aspect to apply for the overall fun experience of the whole population).
Logistical truck example from a previous post:
Did the player mean to drive the logi into nme fire or was it accidental? Oh well we just do not know, so ignore this (though the whole logi-as-trans-by-idiot was left out).
Now. Intent or not ... applied to the mortars .... did they mean to place three or just two mortars? ... do we know? can intent be known here? if I have to explain how ludicrous that sounds .....

Pointwise the destroyed logi equals a two ticket penalty, with a person in it, four tickets.
Try to (please do not) use the words fair, balanced, sportsmanship, fun to describe this:
Pointwise place a third mortar and get an additional say only five kills, ten wounds, one fob down, one support vehicles destroyed, the time nme has to spend healing, the complete termination of a strong attack because of a well placed fob destoyed. ..... hmmmmm hard to quantify, but at least twenty tickets and high probability of a thirty ticket loss against the nme or saved by stopping nme support of a flag or attack they have. So an easy possibility of a minimum fifty tickets difference because of the third mortar.
Nope, you do not get to say "fair" because opfor gets the same exploit. Not on maps where only one side gets mortars. And on all other maps (maybe I should not divulge this secret as you guys might be on opfor against me someday), the destruction of mortars by counter mortar is the mortar teams highest priority (go ahead and disagree about this ... I look forward to going head to head against you via mortars against mortars).
... and then there is the whole actually-having-a-couple-players-on-both-sides-that-can-execute-the-exploit.

Listen Jim if you want to be part of this discussion lets keep the...lets just call it sarcasm out, shall we?

When I admin my stance is : If it's not forbidden then it´s allowed. Regarding the way =HOG= admins have found to run the server kept me playing here for years, long before I joined the clan or became an admin. They must be doing more right than wrong in that regard than most, judging by the results.

- On intent. It has to be not only relevant but fundamental for the servers administration, obviously. It was mentioned as an example of the use of common sense while still doing your job as an admin. Not obvious? Guess not.

- Mentioning common in game situations as examples trying to remind others of some situations that might be seen as exploits by some, but are still common practice, used the word again, common. As in most, frequently seen, commonly observed, more than half..maybe. Why? Never mind...I'll try to stop bringing that up and ask others to do so.

Going back to the OP point...what are we discussing here? The use of 3 mortar pits instead of 2 and the assets inside DOD, the first portion of the issue I think nothing of it. Same as for the squashing people under a "magically summoned" pile of trash or the teleportation suicides. I accept the 3 mortar pits as I accept spawning people from a backpack. Or from a magically summoned dog hut.

It is a minor issue on my view, if it is decided that it should not be allowed I will enforce the rule. We are not talking about a guy that can trade all the teams tickets for tanks or spawned them for free, we are talking about placing a 3rd pit. Big deal. Let the devs fix it or make it a rule. As a player it doesn't bother me, as an admin there is no rule against it in the server were I play. Now what?

Regarding. more previously brought up arguments. Cody's post for instance. I agree on his take on this, will people stop hiding crates inside buildings? Will we stop endlessly requesting rifleman kits from the ass of the that APC for the ammo instead of calling a supply drop? Where do they come from? From endless supply inside the APC, obviously. So the noobs are right in depleting the crates I guess. Kit dropping for double kits.

I would also like to take the opportunity to demand grenade specific bags, medical bags, C4 specific crates, and I would like to ask the Russians to please stop using US/NATO ammo bags to rearm AKs as it is the wrong ammo...And especially stop killing me with it. I find this exploitation of the game mechanics really immersion breaking and super tough to admin.

Does an extra mortar pit break game balance? Lets trade stories on how many times that mortar barrage won the round or wait maybe it was those hidden crates we never found that kept allowing the enemy to build fobs...I suspect they were even deleting the Tow and AA when empty and building new ones...I'm almost certain Swamp is deleting the pits when empty so...That F***** is capabe of that and much more. I have a plan to catch him doing it as soon as it becomes a rule. I'm sure he drives logis into the ocean on Saaremaa on purpose, maybe...keeps telling me a combat Engineer is placing mines behind lines... It is endless.

The only part that matters to me is the DOD issue, sorry to let everyone down, couldn't care less about the damn mortar pit, tried...

I think one full grid outside the main DOD (with the exception of building ON a cache perhaps if it happens to be in really close proximity to main on ins) is fair and very easy to grok. I hope this goes into effect quickly if there is consensus. I get it, that this rule shouldn't be needed, and in a perfect world it wouldn't be. But I have seen assets placed incorrectly which were in DOD many times, and honestly the reality is, people are excitable little chimpanzees and they will shoot in and out of main if given the slightest excuse. This may help to limit that urge.

For examples of where we make concessions to this in game already, I'd just say to look at maps like Muttrah where the castle is a no-go or the bridge north of the UK main on Fools Road (though that map was fixed to make it slightly less chokey for the brits now). Same with not shooting TOWs and AA out of main base — this is not allowed, even though the devs put them there (it's not like we have destructable runways anymore, amirite?!?) .

Those are gameplay adjustments for fairness and are something that are administered rather than built-into the game engine. Frankly with a clear rule of DOD placement I think it will cut down on the back & forth and arguing in game for you admins, anyway. I’m sure you don’t want to hear the bitching, either.


As far as 3 mortars being a major exploit — I would agree completely with Yakk. The three mortar placement (or additional assets) is clearly an exploit and clearly an intention to break game limitations put in by the devs, not just taking advantage of proximity placement to other/old FOBs. 3 x mortars is quite a bit more powerful than standard. I could see keeping 2 tubes up near one another as is typical for fire missions, and a third on reserve for emergency counter-mortaring on the edge of FOB distance. Otherwise that could allow an easy engagement of at least 2 mortar targets now, one at full-bore and another of lesser priority, etc. It's unbalancing when 90% of the time one team will not know how to do the exploit, or not have SLs in a position to collude together to do so.

Please reconsider this. Blowing up your own assets (even suicide) has a ticket and opportunity cost. Glitching to place extra assets does not.

Edit: And as noted, the devs specifically took out the 3 tube arrangement for game balance issues a few versions back. This seems really clear cut to me. It's not simply dropping a crate in a wall which concussion can destroy regardless, or suspension of belief when people spawn in. It's something that is not intended, was stated that it is an exploit by the devs on the officials, was removed in a prior patch, and has an adverse affect on gameplay as frankly, not many people will know how to do it reliably. It is the very definition of unfair and an exploit.

BaconCody wrote:

Let the dev´s patch it, if they think this goes too far… lol

Cheers Cody

Well that's the point. They did patch it to remove 3 mortar pits already.