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NOTICE: DOD rule change effective 11/13 (UPDATED for 11/19)

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2 years 5 months ago - 2 years 5 months ago #32174 by Deleted
Please note: Starting 11/13 12:01AM EST, our DOD rule will be removed. Said another way, you may fire in and out of DOD. (This does not mean you can throw smokes or spam your gun in main spawn; that rule remains in effect to be explicit. That’s annoying, and a waste of time. Don’t do it.). To be further explicit, if ammunition lands in main base (provided the enemy team is even capable of doing so), this is also not against the rules anymore.

There are a variety of reasons why we are making this change. I will only talk about a few, so you have an idea of why now, and why this. As an admin team, we track what type of issues are the most common. Asset stealing is high up there for example. Fights in DOD are common as well, both intentionally as well as accidentally. We’ve talked internally a lot on how to handle this. At the same time, I’ve learned that DOD is INTENDED to be a NO MOVEMENT zone. NOT a no bullets/missiles zone. I personally did not think about this difference, as I assume many of you did not either. 

I fully expect some people to love the change, some people to hate the change. One of the things I ask our admin team to take special care of is to NOT admin gameplay which I believe should be strongly influenced by the game designers and how they intend us to play their game. DOD is part of that. (I would however carve out free kit and lone wolfers. That type of gameplay will not be acceptable on our server.).

Again, I fully expect people will respond differently. With that in mind, this is a notice and announcement. We are NOT gathering feedback right now.. Many people “theory craft”. For anyone who deals with product management, you are familiar with what an iterative process is, as well as decision paralysis. We will make a change, look at impact AFTER SOME TIME HAD PASSED. If we feel like this change isn’t good, we WILL adjust. Said in another way, your opinion after 1-2 rounds is NOT helpful nor will we listen to it seriously. It’s simply not a good gauge as to what impact it has had overall. When we want to gather feedback, we will do it when appropriate and will ask everyone for feedback.

If this works out, great. If not, we’ll do something else.
Last edit: 2 years 5 months ago by Deleted.
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2 years 5 months ago - 2 years 5 months ago #32203 by Deleted
Thread unlocked to request initial feedback from the community.

This initial round will help us see the distribution of types of feedback around our removal of our "Stay away from main, no shooting into "dod"" rule. It is not to solve a "problem" right now.

Please add specific anecdotes that happened to you, or you saw happened. Please DO NOT provide theoretical examples. I.e. I'd like to hear what map you were playing on, what happened exactly, most importantly, what happened after (for example, did the team overall get disadvantaged or did your asset die and you were unhappy, or both). To help filter, please add:

Map you played:
What player were you at the time (i.e. CAS player, TRANS pilot, I was Inf driving a logi, etc.):
Situation:

Note: Saying you didn't feel any difference is valid too.

What feedback will be ignored: Non specific anecdotes. Theoretical examples that did not happen to you.  (we're not here to armchair assume or theorycraft). These are not helpful as it will skew frequency of occurrence.
Last edit: 2 years 5 months ago by Deleted.
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2 years 5 months ago - 2 years 5 months ago #32204 by =MeRk= Sir-Archer
Replied by =MeRk= Sir-Archer on topic NOTICE: DOD rule change effective 11/13 (UPDATED for 11/19)
Map: Marlin
(Camp) Location: C5kp9sub3 - roof top
Kit/Vehicle used: HAT
Vehicles destroyed in enemy main/dod: 1 Tank @3:22:45
1 transport helicopter @3:19:42
1 APC @3:18:53

br.hogclangaming.com/tracker_2021_11_14_...lin_gpm_cq_64.PRdemo
Map: Kafr
(Camp) Location: E13kp1sub3
Kit/Vehicle used: Shilka
Vehicles destroyed in enemy main/dod: 1 CAS @3:40:47

br.hogclangaming.com/tracker_2021_11_14_...lab_gpm_cq_64.PRdemo

How did I feel? Fokin amazing
Last edit: 2 years 5 months ago by =MeRk= Sir-Archer.
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2 years 5 months ago #32205 by StarPlatinumX
I am an inf player normally, occasionally trans, and this change has ruined inf for me. i played around midnight till about 3am on 11/14. 
the maps i played on where Mestia and fallu and it was unbearable. the game already lacks teamwork due to non controllable factors, 
age, language, creed and overall understanding of the game. this change on these maps i played only helped to amplify this issue.
FOBs are now even less likely to be placed due to solo lats rushing main bases and  hitting  unsuspecting logis leaving main. if these were  irl logi vehicles they would normally have some form of protection via convoys, inf, armor, and defensive emplacements which is impossible  to replicate on the HOG server unless youre on the butt buddy winning side that admins refuse to scramble. Another observation was the new need for a main defense squad further removing objective play. on the fallu map it  was running on ins and it was almost impossible to leave main in  any vehicle without being targeted by a lat which resulted in the majority of my team (mec side)  sitting in main doing nothing but waiting for a map switch. on the other hand i also enacted a similar strategy outside of the enemy main on fallu with a gl soldier and a .50 cal vic. my gl guy easily able to hit fresh spawns in their main for over 30 mins while sitting in a concealled position but since it was ins it wasnt as effective as their attack. on mestia i played main  defense which resulted in me  having  to constantly battle lats to help grump have even the slightest chance of leaving or returning to main. he was blown up at least 5 times but being small  as mestia is i guess its kinda expected with or without the rule change, however upon witnessing 2 squads worth of people rushing our main i realized this has now become the most effective strat in the game to deal with assets. im an inf guy i hate assets but they are vital to the game and how it plays this change has effectively neutered armor as a whole unless playing on a 4k map which even then has  it issues with  base rape. a fellow squad mate gave me his anecdote on his experience on a 4k map (khami) stating that whatever side wins the intial armor  battle will usually base rape the losing opponents armor assets until all their ammo is expunged then its back to whoever wins, however what usually occurs is the abandonment of armor squads before the base raping teaming runs outta ammo, hindering the team as a whole wasting time to establish a whole new armor squad which may be even worse. lastly the lack of defensive emplacements although they were said to have been added. it may be just because i havent experienced all the maps with these added in yet but it was seriously a slap in the face when getting base raped not having anything of the sort. im not sure if the rule should be removed entirely yet maybe some form of modification or just some fine tuning is needed but as is it has been poorly  implemented resulting in  a product that probably strays further from the developers vision of the game since they expect a team work based milsim game. 
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2 years 5 months ago - 2 years 5 months ago #32206 by SLATuAn
Map: Fallujah
(Camp) Location: N4kp1 - roof top
Kit/Vehicle used: MG
Camp INS main/ repair station: 3:34:00
someone get mad, switched team for hunting US camper @3:29:30

tracker: br.hogclangaming.com/tracker_2021_11_13_...insurgency_64.PRdemo
Last edit: 2 years 5 months ago by SLATuAn.
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2 years 5 months ago #32208 by sprint113
If HOG decides to keep this rule, I think it should at least be modified to differentiate main bases and the DOD around it. I can sort of understand the rationale about treating DOD areas outside mains as unsafe territory. And given that on some maps, it is often ambiguous both as an attacker and defender to know if you are shooting in/out of the DOD and can be a headache to admin.

However, there are several maps where you have a vantage point to shoot into enemy main; compound that with heavy assets spawning on a known timer plus weapon warm-up time and that can potentially break the map for that team (e.g. trans basically won't be able to fly on Korengal, cas/trans on Bamyan).

There are some exception where it become a bit difficult on some maps when the main base borders aren't clearly defined by fences/walls (e.g Marlin, Mestia, Adak, Shijia) so defining how far the main base extends is up for debate. Similarly, the vertical height for aircraft and helicopters to be considered "in main" would need to be decided.

In addition to main protection, you should be allowed to shoot out of main while attackers aren't allowed to return fire into it. The high reward of getting "easy" kills camping main should be countered by having greater risk involved. Most main bases were not designed with defense in mind, there aren't enough players to dedicate to defending main bases and even if there were the defending team is unable to build additional defenses to man. So given that the attacking team already has a significant advantage, this should help even things out and make main camping a bit more risky while making it easy for players and admins to know what actions are permitted. And again, there might need to be some additional rules for some vehicles, particularly the rocket techy.
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